Rome seems to be an impasse. Facing war on all fronts and with escalating crisis between the patricians and the plebeians the place of Rome in the Italian world is at the brink. It’s 445 BCE and the republic is still young enough to fail. How will Rome face the chaos coming at them from outside while weakened from their own internal conflict? Tune in to find out!
Episode 123 – The Turning Point
Secret Meetings
In order to get Rome motivated for war, the internal problems need to be resolved first. What better time then for some of the more senior Romans (who also just happen to be patrician) to get together for a clandestine meeting… Some important decisions are reached but despite the secrecy of the meeting, it does not go unnoticed. Is Rome really more of an oligarchy than it likes to think it is?
Canuleius’ Speech
On the other side of town, the tribune of the plebs, Gaius Canuelius, is getting fired up about the restrictive marriage laws that are part of the Twelve Tables. And boy does he have a speech to make about it! He digs deep into Rome’s history right back to the kings to explain to the plebeians how their exclusion from marriage to patricians is offensive. He explores the way Rome is in a process of constant adaption and change with examples to support his case that excluding plebeians is insupportable.
Military Tribunes with Consular Power
In a time of great struggle innovation becomes a necessity. With Rome facing threats from just about every direction, the consuls won’t be able to be everywhere they are needed commanding armies. Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus view the development of military tribunes with consular power as part of the patricians trying to placate the plebeians. But is there more to it than that? We delve into the background of the role, what it means for the structure of Roman governance, and compare the sources on the subject.
Tune in for
- The suggestion that the plebeians have the right to introduce laws
- Dastardly plans from the the patricians
- Some weighty demands for the repel of the marriage ban and access to governing power for the plebeians
- A shocking moment of patricians conceding to the plebeians!
Our Players
Consuls 445 BCE
- M. Genucius – f. – n. Augurinus – Pat.
- C. (or Agripp.) Curtius – f. – n. Philo (or Chilo) Pat.
Notable Patricians
- Gaius Claudius, uncle of the infamous Appius Claudius
- Titus Quinctius L. f. L. n. Capitolinus Barbatus
- L. Valerius P. f. P. n. Potitus (Poplicola?) – Pat.
- M. Horatius M. f. L. (or P.) n. Barbatus
- Titus Genucius, the brother of the consul!
Tribune of the Plebs
- C. Canuleius
- C. Furnius
Sources
- Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Roman Antiquities, 11.55-60.
- Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.2-6.
- Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
- Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)
- Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press)
Sound Credits
Thanks to BBC Sounds (Beta) for sound effects and the wonderful Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.
Joseph Gandy c. 1830 – A Scene in Ancient Rome: A Setting for Titus Andronicus, I, ii.
An imagined view of Rome from a much grander period of history than what we’d expect to find in the fifth century BCE!
See this picture up close here.
Automatic Transcript
We’re exploring transcription options! The transcript below was automatically generated by Descript and can also be accessed here. Hopefully those Latin names and places can still be understood!
Dr Rad00:01
Welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians, where we trace the history of Rome from the founding of the city. I’m one of your hosts, Dr. Rad, and
Dr G00:12
I am Dr. G and we are in the thrilling year of 445.
Dr Rad00:18
Yeah. This is a big year. We’ve had a few years since 449, the year that never ended as we were talking about the second December and the 12 tables and the second succession and all that stuff is going on. Now, it comes to another bump that year. And it’s a really big year because there’s lots of gums going under it to G
Dr G00:37
there’s lots of conflict and how this conflict gets resolved. Fascinating. So we’re in the console ship of Marcus good nucleus and Gaia’s courteous Chilo or Kylo. And so far, we’ve had a bit of a situation where the Tribune of the plebs have come out and they’ve started to demand some pretty rigorous changes.
They want a marriage law change. And they would also like to have half the console ship, please.
Dr Rad01:08
Yes, very much about the land rights because of the marriage law they want changed is the second December it. And the 12 tables had added this ban on marriage between Patricia and simple beings. Seemingly part of this process that as patricians were sort of coring, more status and more power inside of room for themselves and way of doing that is obviously to make themselves.
Very special in terms of their bloodline. And of course the console ship deck, it’s like the most prestigious, obviously you can hold. Yeah.
Dr G01:37
And so, and the plebeians now want half, they, like, we want one console out of the two to be plebeian. Well, this throws the Senate and the current consoles into a bit of a tailspin.
And while they’re trying to cope with their feelings about. It turns out that just about everywhere around Roy is exploding with conflict and it’s coming for Rome. So we’ve got the Etruscans from veil coming down. We’ve got people from our data being annoyed about the way that their territory has just been claimed by Rome.
The previous year we’ve got the aqueous and the Wolski. Also quite irritated. And so Rome is facing war on just about every front and can imagine while at the same time facing this internal conflict with the attribute of the plebs refusing to allow the levy of the army to happen and to they get some, at least some preliminary decrees passed that are going to improve the lot of the plebeians over time.
Dr Rad02:39
Absolutely. So without further ado, Dr. G, let’s see how this whole situation revolves asset. So without further ado, Dr. G, let’s see how this whole situation resolves itself by checking out the wrist of 4 45 BC.
All right. So I left on quite a tense moment in my account where the consoles of throwing the toys out of the prime. And they’ve said that they would rather die than see, put beans in the console ship, the Tribune so said that they would rather die than not get this law. That’s going to overturn the marriage.
And demanding half of the console ship through, they’re not going to let people enlist in the army. So that’s a pretty,
Dr G03:24
everybody’s going to die.
Dr Rad03:25
Yeah. That’s not a great situation to be in what’s happening in Dionysius land.
Dr G03:30
Well, in dynasties of how it can asses the consoles have made the decision that in order to try and figure some of this stuff out, it’s probably a good time to have a private meeting with some key patricians okay.
They’re going to sneak off. Bit of a chat all by themselves. Now this is, I mean, having a private chat is not a bad thing. People can do that, but this is going to upset some people, one of the key people who is invited to attain this secret get together is Gaius Koreas.
Dr Rad04:03
Oh my gosh. I could just get through, I don’t know, six months without hearing a Claudius mentioned.
Dr G04:13
So guidance Claudius famously the uncle of the highly disgraced, uh, Appian Claudius of the December period.
Dr Rad04:23
He’s one of the guys that introduced this law apparently.
Dr G04:27
Well, well, well, fancy him being invited to the secret meeting.
Dr Rad04:32
I mean, sorry, obviously it’s introduced a little hot guys.
Dr G04:35
Yeah. So guys Cornelius is here and the Claudia are famed for being quite arrogant, um, highly traditional, uh, patrician.
Dr Rad04:44
Vintage patrician. Patricians that we love to hate.
Dr G04:50
And he’s a key motivating features in his speech in this private gathering is. And use violence isn’t necessary.
Dr Rad04:59
You know what? I could have seen that coming a mile away
Dr G05:03
shall be given to those Patricians. They go to a corrupt, everything, um, and they’ll ruin the ancient form of the government and people who oppose the ancient form of the government, uh, enemies of the state and alien.
Dr Rad05:23
Wow. Okay. Hang on a second. Hang on a second. Ancient form of the government. Are they forgetting that their public is only about 50 years old at this stage? Doesn’t matter. Doesn’t
Dr G05:33
matter, guys. Claudia’s is pretty keen on the idea. And you see this crop up with, um, groups that are highly nationalist. It’s like if you criticize us and you’re not.
Then you are against us and you’re our enemy and you’re not one of us. You are an alien to us. So it’s like, you can’t be part of the Inc group, unless you agree with exactly everything that we’ve already
Dr Rad05:57
done. Yeah. Which is a huge problem in today’s society as well. Because if you don’t learn to talk to and compromise with people who are different to you, we are never going to fix the very serious challenges that face our world.
Dr G06:13
Yes. Well, Gaia’s Claudius today would be helping nobody. Um, this meeting continues, uh, he sits down and he said his peace. Uh, he gets to talk pretty much first because he’s one of the oldest guys around and being an Accordi I’m sure he would put his case. Totally. And then we have Titus Queens. Stand
Dr Rad06:33
up.
Yeah. Is this capital land? This guy,
Dr G06:36
this is, yeah. Try squint his capital on his boat bottles. So when you imagine this guy, you have to imagine he’s got a nice beard. Yeah. He gets up, he was the console of 4 46. Um, so you guys successful? Yeah. It does have a right to. And he’s also held the console ship four times hugely popular as a console.
Absolutely. And he says that violence is probably not the answer because that would be civil bloodshed. Um, yeah,
Dr Rad07:03
we kind of need the people to fight out numerous entities. I mean, remember how we were all panicking a minute ago, because we’ve got three different. France to
Dr G07:12
deal with. And he’s like, we can assume that that’s not our ideal.
Um, if we kill them and they fight for us, I can’t assume we can
Dr Rad07:22
assume. That’s not going to say about assumptions.
Dr G07:26
Never assume. Never say. And he’s also black, notably, we’re always going to be opposed by the tribunes. Yes. Um, you know, they are sacrifice. In many respects and they swim very serious. Oh. So we have to take all of that into account.
We can’t just wait in there and do the yield. Nothing use violence, if necessary attitude sort of approach. That’s not going to work here. It’s not going to get us what we want.
Dr Rad07:55
This is why this guy’s popular because whilst he is completely patrician through and through at least he’s smart. Yeah. He’s not an idiot and he’s not so hotline.
That yeah. Violence is the main thing that he’s going to suggest,
Dr G08:09
but white Ford then Claudius is like, okay, look, I take your point. Uh, which is pretty big of him to be honest. Cause usually it doesn’t take anybody
Dr Rad08:18
to make maybe the fact that, you know, Accurus was murdered or died by suicide, his dad and his enthusiasm.
Dr G08:28
It was trying to temper himself. Yeah, exactly. And it’s a private meeting, so he feels like he can speak openly. I’m not unaware of the great calamities that we face just to put it out there. And I think it’s important that every man should be able to say. About what he thinks will be to, uh, to the advantage of the state.
Um, and then we’ll have the decision made by the majority. Now that’s weird. They were in a private meeting of select patricians and consoles. They’re like a secret meeting. There’s a secret meeting and he’s like, well, as long as we all agree and the majority comes to a decision, that’s
Dr Rad09:06
fine. Is he need, does he need the Senate?
Does he mean like the widest Senate or it’s not at all clear. Surely he doesn’t mean. No,
Dr G09:13
no, no. He means Patricia. Um, and he then goes on to say, Only the patricians are alone, are qualified by both law and ritual practice to
Dr Rad09:25
hold the console ship. Ah, I see. So, okay. So Danny says, essentially put the words that are in Livy as like a general comment from the patricians about their special position in society into the mouth of someone specific.
Yeah, it was horrifying who it matches the reputation of his family.
Dr G09:47
Further to this. He’s like, what about if we propose an alternative?
Dr Rad09:54
Uh, ha lessening listening. Here
Dr G09:57
we go. What if instead of the two consoles, we appoint six military tribunes with consular power.
Dr Rad10:08
Ah, I see. You’re you’re you’re jumping ahead of me.
Okay. Yeah.
Dr G10:13
Only three of them could be patrician. And the other three could be plebeian.
Dr Rad10:19
I don’t for one hot second, I believe that a Claudia suggested I sorry,
Dr G10:24
but then wait for the rationale. The beauty of this is that we offer them consular power without debasing the consulate position.
Dr Rad10:38
How is that not debating, is
Dr G10:40
it because instead of invoke, instead of voting in, in the next year, instead of voting in two consoles, it’s like, let’s vote in six military tribunes with concierge
Dr Rad10:51
power, right.
I actually mean cause the title is different. The title is different. Yeah.
Dr G10:56
And some stuff about that is going to be very specific and interesting and different as well. So that’s the teaser of. I’ll stop there. Okay. I see what Libby has to say.
Dr Rad11:07
Well, see, this is where the differences in our account, make it a little tricky to tell a cohesive story, because as we talked about last episode, Libby does talk about these sorts of issues and I will get to where you’re up to, but he’s also very concerned about the intermediary,
Dr G11:28
but wait up guys, what about the intermarriage
Dr Rad11:31
law?
Which makes sense because everything that they’re using as an argument for opposing plebeians in the console ship, or that idea about purity and prestige of the patrician. Cos, if you want to call them that eats very much what they’re worried about with intermarriage as well. So prepare yourself to JT.
There is a beanbag in this room
Dr G11:54
because well, I have to put my face
Dr Rad11:56
into it when you might have to fall into it. Oh, faint. Because levy has a long speech. Oh yeah. Oh, I’m excited.
Dr G12:05
Now one speech. This is unprecedented.
Dr Rad12:09
It’s really. Okay, but I think it’s important because he doesn’t often have these sorts of speeches.
So it’s also putting the mouth of the Tribune of the plebs, the one who had apparently proposed the bill to overturn the marriage ban and to put for beans into the console ship can no less. So he dresses the people at this very tense moment where neither side seems like they’re going to give in, you know, life or death.
It’s just like, no, we’re not going to do this. So he starts talking to the people and says, The patricians clearly hate plebeians. I mean, why else would they make our lives so difficult? Now look, maybe the majority of Roman people don’t have the same amount of money that the patricians have, but at the end of the day, we have Romans too.
We live here too. This is our town. Oh, where requests. First and foremost is the right of intermarriage, which he, interestingly notes, people who aren’t from Rome could be granted. So yeah, enemies, that room had defeated. They’re allowed to marry. Patricians gross. What about the blood lines? But this is what he’s pointing out is patricians are able to marry.
People who aren’t Ruben who are even defeated, enemies, been one earth, shouldn’t the plebeians have that same, right? Why are the consoles and the patricians and the centers all getting so upset? Why they even making threats? I get the, I guess, the Sacra sanctuary of the trivia, which has only just been restored in the aftermath of the second December and the second session, 12 tables and all of that, you know, why, why are they finding this?
So. Ah, and oh, I’m not anyway needs anyway. Need done? Good. You ladies wonders. Eighth of the beans had actually realized just how little respect the patricians really.
Dr G14:15
I’m pretty sure they’ve realized
Dr Rad14:17
time for a reality check can kind of be brutal. I’m going to be brutal. So he’s pointing out that the way that they’ve responded to this request about the concert.
It’s almost as though they’ve asked to put a slave or a Friedman in command to the state. So it disgusted the patricians. And so he’s like, do you get that? That’s like insulting. Like they called you a month, you know, do you, do you get that? Because if you don’t, I’m here to bring reality to you. So the patricians he claimed.
The goal in life is to take everything from a even, and this is just hilarious thing would take the sunshine away if they could. Oh, that’s quite poetic. So Patricia essentially start asking you, at least as concerned, resent the existence of the pavilions. They resent them, the oxygen, they breathe, they resent their right of speech.
They resent the fact that they look the same. We call them, tell them a book, Sterling. Yeah, it’s all terrible. And they just hate them through and through. And this is why he starts going into some interesting backstory as well. He’s asking about the fact that the pole beans, if they’re not allowed to do things like consult the phone, All the commentaries of the pontiffs, then that knowledge is being held from them.
And again, apparently knowledge that even foreign is, could potentially access more easily than I have some
Dr G15:48
pretty big questions for Olivia. At this point, I feel like it’s very unlikely that they’re going to allow foreigners to rock up and have a look at the sacred texts that relate to the participant.
And then just go away
Dr Rad15:59
again. Listen, this is exactly it. I mean, who knows if maybe they’re talking about like during particular ceremonies, but yet it’s interesting that he makes that, that comment, maybe you can, at least is getting a little carried away here, but anyway,
Dr G16:15
we’re talking about the Etruscans possibly have a right to have a look at those books because they were part of them being written
Dr Rad16:21
and they’re also better at interpreting science apparently.
So, yeah, that’s what I mean, like. Who knows who the who’s been invited in to have a peak foreign dignitaries and
Dr G16:34
want to check out
Dr Rad16:34
my secret text. And this is where he starts going all the way back to the Regal period. So he’s really digging deep here. He’s pointing out something that we noted when we covered.
Time period. Roman Kings could come from anywhere. In fact, they generally weren’t Patricia, some academics and this is, this is not
Yeah. So that academics have even suggested that one of the, uh, CA uh, I don’t know when you say one of the categories for the thinking was not to be a patrician. Ah, you know, that they actually had to come from outside the country. So, yeah, that’s, that’s even been suggested, but certainly we know that how you would sustain that as a theory.
No, I’m just saying like it’s being theorized. And so, yeah, I agree with him. Certainly we know a lot of the Kings were not Roman, you know, so, you know, new mom came from say bind territory and therefore a lot of them also weren’t patricians and, you know, Soviet choice apparently was, you know, from a defeated at any such site background,
Dr G17:39
let’s just be logical for a moment.
Um, the trouble with this kind of argument is that RO emergent. As a state that is cobbled together from the surrounding areas. That’s the story it tells about itself. Of course, the Kings aren’t patricians cause the Patricia that is created in the Regal period by the Kings and those Kings have to come from somewhere and they can’t come from Rome because Rome
Dr Rad18:07
isn’t a thing.
Ah, but he also points out that the Colombians themselves weren’t Raven, they have not, now they know that. Yeah. But they came about after. Yeah. After the Patricia apparently would have started to be created. If we accept that Romulus started the Patricia, which is okay, dubious, because he knows the Romulus existed.
But let’s say for argument’s sake that the propitiation did have his origins under Romulus. The Colombians don’t come along under Romulus. There saved my family to come along later. And he’s he’s point is that if people can. Be incorporated and recognize for that excellence and become patricians. What about the people that live here?
And this is ridiculous. Like we should only, we should just be prioritized. Excellent. You know, look at the, you know, look, uh, Lucius stuck when you use Crisco. So you look at these people who are recognized for being excellent and ruled Rome and nothing disastrous happened when you had an outsider ruling road.
That’s his point, I suppose, I get where you’re coming from, but that’s his major points, I suppose. Um, and so, yeah, he, he cites all these previous Kings is, you know, fantastic examples. So clearly they must have for bands in past. Because otherwise you’re going to get people like the second December it coming back again, like it’s just inevitable that there are going to be terrible people coming to power.
Again, you need to have a check on that, I think. Okay. And he also points out that. Okay. So let’s say that this is the situation we’ve got. Outreach to argue that Rome never changes, never adapts is Rome just going to stay exactly how it is right at this moment and never alter anything. Like that’s not, that’s not good government.
I mean, it’s bad policy. And he says he points out all the things, all the things that have made Rome better. So new Matt introduced. And Sophia’s Twilio is the king. He introduced the census apparently and reorganized Rome, and that made run better gradually in their Republic. Dictators were introduced.
You had the addition of we’ll be interviewing. So, I mean, that’s not an argument’s going to continue convincing patricians, but he thinks that that’s a good addition. You also had a dolls and questers all these additional offices where. And you had the destined verse. They came in, they were terrible.
They’re gone. Rome changes, Rome changes. And you know what, it’s generally something that is for the better, but Patricia is in the background.
unless it benefits us in which case we’re all for it. Yeah. So he’s talking about the fact that. It’s such an insult that there, that this idea that there, the patrician blood was somehow be polluted, especially considering that a lot of them come from places like Alba and say buying territory. Whereas a lot of the food beans, allegedly, uh, bull and bread, my friend born bread in Rome.
Not everybody can say that they are, you know, totally natives and he’s like, can’t, they just maintain their status and appears you and all that kind of stuff. And. Can I be into marriage? Like, is that, is that really so inconceivable that yeah. Say the Patricia needs conceivable. Yeah, exactly. Um, and so he says, you know, why not?
Why not just take it further? Why not introduce a law where you ban marriage between rich and poor? I mean, essentially that’s always been the way it’s worked. Hasn’t it? It’s not like rich guys are marrying poor chicks and vice versa. Why not take it even further. Why not ban Patricia to me even living near Cobain or even Ben, and from walking down the same road, I find this fascinating because this is so similar to like segregation in say, you know, America or Australia in terms of what happened.
Uh, African-Americans and indigenous Australians. It is like disturbing that what he’s essentially saying is this is the beginning of segregation. Yeah. This is what is
Dr G22:12
the logical conclusion of the thing that the patricians are arguing for. This is the
Dr Rad22:16
start and this is where it’s going to add. Yeah.
Okay. I’m going to wrap up NASA, be relieved. He points out that to finish. We need to think about this. We kicked out the king. And apparently the point of that was that old Romans would have equal Liberty. That was the point of establishing the Republic. Allegedly. Now the patricians have assumed so much power.
I mean, is there equal, does he easily petite and right. Or are the patricians calling all the shots, all the room and people in command of this. No, I don’t think so. I think so. Shouldn’t the Roman people be allowed to introduce bores. Isn’t that the whole point of what just happened a few years ago. Okay.
In that, what we decided that, you know, Pauline decisions were going to be binding on everybody or should the patricians be able to bring in a levee in retaliation every time they propose a piece of law and now. We don’t think that that’s necessarily what they were doing right now. I think there is legitimately some military problems on the horizon, but they have done it in the cost.
Yes, I can. I can understand
Dr G23:35
rousing speech
Dr Rad23:41
So the petitions have already shown that when the plebeians you not light during the time to the succession. So the first session and for. Second secession in 4 49, the patricians have shown that they have, I haven’t got to like to stand on. And this is where I’m going to take a slight side note. We’ve talked about this, the sessions before in the sense that they are really interesting because even though the beans surely must vastly outnumber the patricians, even though the Patricia, okay.
Might be a significant number of people considering the population of room at this time. Well, that’s all highly speculative because we don’t know how many people are living in Rome at this time. Surely that the beans outnumber them because that’s the whole point of being part of an elite. Okay. You’re part of a minority and yet they’ve never resorted to, um, struggle.
Like they’ve gotten close, but generally they just kind of opt out and do their own thing. You know, it’s really, he’s really interesting. So by this point in time, but the beans really are kind of developing this interesting. Parallel culture. Some people have even dumped in as being like a state within the state because by this stage they’ve actually set up their own archive system where they actually start like depositing Rick, their own records, which is something that the Patricia will something that will be incorporated into the Roman state as a whole, you know, like some of the, a lot of their ideas and their innovations will eventually be worked into the Roman system.
So it is kind of interesting that they have developed. Yeah, this idea. And it is interesting that once again, they’re talking about the fact that we just need to stand up and oppose them. We don’t necessarily even need to fight them. We just need to stand United. The beans are of course, prepared to fight in this war, which faces numerous France, but cannula is determined that they’re only going to get it.
If they get those two things, the ban being overturned. And access to the government via the concept ship. If they get the demands they want, he was coming up the boom up. And if not, nobody is going to enlist because quite frankly, why should they, they are being treated like debt.
Dr G26:00
Oh,
Dr Rad26:02
thank you. Thank you. I read it myself, myself.
All right.
Dr G26:09
So I assume that the beans are going to react well to this speech.
Dr Rad26:13
I actually don’t have much of a reaction from the liens because we go straight into the reaction of one of the console. Oh no. Okay. So can you listen, turns around, ask the console. So tell me why. Why are you going to be so mean again?
Why
Dr G26:31
would you say all of those
Dr Rad26:32
things in public really hurt my feelings? Yeah. Courteous responded that once again, we got to go back to this ID off the auspices and he uses the word that I really love. And again, it seems very hard punch to me. You also, this, this would be confounded people being stride to undertake them.
It has to be a patrician. This
Dr G26:51
just feels like a really filthy argument from Libby. I have to say.
Dr Rad26:55
There is a different lady or is it from the horrible Patricia?
Dr G26:59
I mean, it’s coming through and Livy. I get no hint of it at all in Dionysus of how can I say,
Dr Rad27:06
because I have the spirit Libby and funnily enough, he makes a little note.
Cody’s probably should’ve read the room that wasn’t really probably the best moment to bring that up, which I love because of course for the hands are absolutely for your ears at that’s the response after that huge speech that can, Elise has gone through. Exactly. He’s the planes are at race because they’re like, okay.
So not only do you think that we are the scum between your toes? But now you’re also suggesting that the gods just us, that we can’t possibly
Dr G27:41
screw you, buddy role of your
Dr Rad27:43
friends. Yeah. The building’s attributes are therefore locked into their position. They are incredibly determined, but they’ve been insulted too many times.
The patricians given. Wow. Just like that. What? Just like that? Yeah. They loud the ban on into marriage to be overturned. On the understanding that they’re hoping that the whole thing about the console ship will just be forgotten
Dr G28:08
about. So what, they just don’t say anything about that?
Dr Rad28:11
Well, no, they just like, okay.
We agree into marriage should be allowed. And just, we’ll just we’ll think about the other thing later. We’ve got to deal with the war and now for the lovey. Yes. Now of course the Philippines have only just gained a massive confidence boost.
Dr G28:31
Yeah. So if you’ve agreed to number one, what about your agreement?
Number two,
Dr Rad28:36
you need, we just have to give a really long speech. Well, we could have done that a long time. Well, Libby. Yeah. So they are totally, I totally got an energy boost from this overturning all of the marriage man. And they thought, well, you know, I think, I think we can, maybe I think we can maybe hold out, you know, I think maybe we can, we can keep fighting.
We can keep pushing for the console ship, you know, let’s,
Dr G29:04
let’s see one cliff, maybe we’ll jump off
Dr Rad29:06
the other and the councils aren’t able to get anything through the Senate at this point in time, because allegedly the tribunes are prepared to use their theater. Now you and I have flagged this before as being problematic.
To be honest as we’ve, as we’ve highlighted, the way that the circle of the orders is laid out is super problematic in terms of when they get certain rights, the whole position of the Tribune, it’s hard to figure out what they actually would have had in terms of their powers at this point in time, as opposed to what Lydia assumes, they had all the analysts who are, who Lydia is basing his count on.
Yeah, I think they probably assuming that the tribunes have. The power more power than they probably have. But nonetheless, this is why they turn to a private meeting with the consoles and other leading men in the status and narratives. So they begin to power a little badly. I told you we get there eventually.
And so in the private meeting, and I start talking about the fact that look, we’re either going to have a civil war now. Or we’re going to be conquered by the numerous entities that are out at our gates right now. And the interesting thing to note here is that all X console seem to be involved in this meeting except for the Larry’s and Heraclitus oh yes.
This
Dr G30:26
will come up in Dionysius
Dr Rad30:28
as well. Yes. Um, and so hilarious. And Bharatiya sister reminds you guys, these were, these guys are patrician through and through. But they were patricians that could see that the second December were tyrants and that the power that they held in, the position that they held in the state was problematic.
And they also could see, as you pointed out the common sense or not wanting the plebeians to secede from the state of Roni, go and live elsewhere and start their own band.
Dr G30:56
Yeah. These are the two guys that go out when the, when the plebeians do succeed and go and have a chat to them. They’re like, Look, we know it’s not okay.
And we’re going to do our best, let us lead you. And so they come across as monitoring.
Dr Rad31:13
Patricians and they also introduced the laws after the second December and the second session to sort of restore things like, so they were the distributor, they restored certain rights to the plebs and distributing.
And so yeah, they, they seen as being kind of tops flight
Dr G31:27
into the secret
Dr Rad31:28
meeting. so interesting. It’s room seems to be just like so segregated right now, but anyway, and that’s where I come in to the whole thing with guys, Claudia. At also capital liners, having their discussions. Exactly. As you said, you know, one of them suggesting let’s just fight, let’s just kill them all.
And the other one saying maybe not, maybe not civil bloodshed God. Yeah, exactly. And that is where we get the introduction of this new position, military tribunes with consular authority, which we made up of patricians and proving. But the console shape of course will remain unchanged in terms of like who’s allowed to hold that so that it won’t be corrupted.
And this decision very much appeases the tribunes and the plebs in my account. How do they feel in your account?
Dr G32:18
Oh, okay. So this is just the first in a moment of grand deception as it were. So they have this secret meeting where clueless. Guys Claudia. So of all people is the one who makes this a sort of suggestion that we have these military tribunes with consular power.
Now listen, as if you’re hearing this and you’re like, but what does that even mean? Uh, fair enough. Uh, what this means. Is when they organize, uh, the Roman army. So when they do a levy, part of what happens is they make a selection within the people that have been levied. That song will be military tribunes.
Yes. Now the numbers for this very, and we’re not sure, it depends on the time period. Uh, records are scattered at best, but there’s usually between three to six military tribunes poorly. Yeah, so they kind of like an organizational structure and then you can, you can be patrician or you could be poor band and you could be a military Tribune.
Yeah. It just depends on how the levy happens. And this seems to be a selection process, but whoever is fighting within that Legion, some of those people will end up being military patients with some degree. Of responsibility to report back to the generals who would be the consoles at this point, and then to like sort of distribute, uh, the sort of orders as they come down.
Dr Rad33:43
Yeah. And suddenly exactly, as you just slacked right there. It’s also important to note that the console shape really was not just a political position at this point in time. It definitely is a military military position. You can’t, you can’t split facing support in room at this
Dr G33:57
point in time. Yeah. The cultural shift is military.
Uh, political and ritual in nature, and most Magister sees ends up having a, sort of a sacred aspect to them in the way that they’re performed. Um, and it’s no different for the console shit. And so, but the military Tribune is kind of just like a functional leadership position within Allegion, so that don’t necessarily have any sort of ritual ties.
Um, and it can be held by anybody. Usually an experienced soldier at a certain point might go on to be a military tribute. So they take this concept that they’ve already got embedded and they’re like, well, what if we take that idea? And we expanded out and we give them, uh, Cancilla power. So this is in the political sense to a certain degree, but mostly in the military sense and probably not a what on the ritual side.
So it’s this ability to sort. Be a leader, make decisions for the cohorts that you’re looking after. And by placing them as the top magistracy in, in place of the console ships. So you wouldn’t have consoles and military tributes with Cancilla power. You either have one or the other. They sort of allowing console a power to be distributed down the line a little bit amongst a greater number of people.
And
Dr Rad35:21
this is really interesting because if we think about how academics have interpreted, what is going on in this period, certainly the suggestions has been that this, this time period around 44, 4 45, Really important for Rome in that it almost seems like Rome is actually just restructuring and talking about to collapse.
Yeah. It seems like there are new challenges potentially facing room. Um, possibly because they have made a name for themselves in the area, made some enemies and it’s not going down well, but for whatever reason, There does seem to be a need underlying this decision, which might not be actually anything to do with the struggle of the audience.
So, yeah, and this, this is what’s interesting because we like our sources play it up as being very much about Patricia investments for being anything, but actually might just be Rams and clever. It
Dr G36:13
might just be a practical decision to deal with the threat that they currently face. Yes, they have enemies on all sides of this.
It is a problem. They do need some solutions and if they only. To consoles. They technically can only divide up their forces in
Dr Rad36:31
two different directions. Yeah. And at the same time in 4 46 questers were brought in, uh, which is, it’s not something brand new. Exactly. But the way that they were sort of brought back.
Um, you know, for the needs of the state, apparently I haven’t been around for a while. And also just looking ahead a little bit in 4 43, we’re going to see the resurrection of this Institute. So it does seem like there’s a whole bunch of offices that are being either like resurrected rebranded, re yeah.
Oh, this restructuring is going on around these periods. So it is a really crucial period for Rome. Yeah.
Dr G37:07
And I think we can see this as part of the broader sense in the way that the consequences of the December it playing out as well, because that is also a structure that is
Dr Rad37:17
about
Dr G37:17
instability. Yeah. And we’re seeing that instability continue.
It seemed like they’d sort of swept it aside a little bit, but it seems like they haven’t gotten out of. And now things have come to a head again, and they’ve had to come up with a new way to navigate themselves through a difficult period. And so this military tribute it with the lot power is going to be this new group.
This is their new idea to solve a problem that they’re currently facing, which seems to be mostly a military thing. Um, so we’ll see how that pans out for them. But anyway, we’ve got this. Alongside both sort of considerations is the kind of literary narrative which has really betrayed. This is about the Kloss struggle.
Yes. So Claudius comes out of this, um, uh, suggestion that they have this new position and that’s exciting, but then he says, let’s go in with a plan we’re going to need to, so this to the people first, we need to pass the preliminary decree in the Senate. Then we need to give the floor to anybody who wants to see.
But let’s decide who’s going to speak here. I’m not going to start either. Is queen tedious? Uh, my, my good friend Quinty is who suggested that civil bloodshed might be a little bit disastrous. Let’s why don’t we start with Lucy is hilarious. And immediately after him, friend of the popular. we’re going to load those two to speak first.
They haven’t been invited to this meeting at all. They’re just,
Dr Rad38:49
we’re going to use them and abuse them.
Dr G38:52
And now they can say whatever they want, whatever. Wow. And then all come up and speak and I’ll do my usual speech about, you know, where I’m a traditional patrician and this is what I want, et cetera, et cetera.
And then, then we’ll get tied to school. The console’s brother. So we’re in the year. What? 4 45 Marcus gooky is the console. We’ll get his brother Titus to stand up and Hugh propose the measure about the military tribunes with consular power. We’ll get him to do it. This
Dr Rad39:23
is so orchestrated. Yeah,
Dr G39:27
we’ll get, we’ll get, uh, Marcus canoe.
He to be like, look, I think my brother wants to speak. Let’s get him up here. And. That’s how we’re going to play this because by the time we get through those two moderate, patricians having their say, um, and sort of trying to get people to, to do what they need to do in the nicest way. Possible me being an asshole.
They’ll definitely buy it coming from. Wow.
Dr Rad39:51
This is crazy. This is so different when I have this
Dr G39:54
secret meeting is full of plaid. Yeah. Now the tributes rightly a highly suspicious of this secret patrician meeting with the council, of course. And so they’re like, we need to have a strategy as well. So they get together with their allies and they’re like, well, let’s have our own private meeting show and they start out by like, okay.
So whatever they do, we just have to, we just have to say, no,
Dr Rad40:19
basically it’s kind of in a way,
Dr G40:23
what could they possibly be doing? We just have to say no. So they have, we move into the execution of guys, coy. This is planned. Right.
Dr Rad40:32
Okay.
Dr G40:33
And they have the preliminary decree me. And then we have guys can utilize Tribune of the plebs finally comes forward.
And he’s like, I wonder though, about this secret meeting that’s been had and why weren’t Valerius and her audience invite. You know, our
Dr Rad40:54
a fair question. These are the
Dr G40:56
patricians that are most, uh, willing to, to side with the plebeians.
Dr Rad41:01
You and I know why I think everybody knows why,
Dr G41:05
but please know that Gaia’s Courtney says master plan has already taken that into account.
Yeah. And so. They take clearly says speech where he’s like, look, it’s not, it’s not, it’s not okay. Uh, for those two who are so great and lauded in their positions to have been left out of whatever secret meeting you’ve been having, it’s not okay. And I guess they’ve been left out because you’re trying to screw us over and then they have the beautiful moment where the Patricia.
Oh, oh, well, why don’t we let them speak
Dr Rad41:41
first? Wow. How many kilos now?
Dr G41:46
Volaris and varieties haven’t been let into this secret net, like
Dr Rad41:51
Patricia, just speaking off the
Dr G41:52
cuff, just speak off the cuff. Yeah. And they try to do what is, what seems most appropriate. Apparently hilarious makes a long speech, but Dionysus of pallet Kinesis, thankfully doesn’t give it to us.
Just tells us that there’s a little. Any kind of hopes, um, that we’ll be able to move forward and we’ll be able to work together as a state. And, you know, we’re only, um, as equal as, as we act. So, you know, we all have to act
Dr Rad42:25
together. Awesome.
Dr G42:29
And, you know, and having a law that gives a share of the pencil ship to all Romans, um, those who have lived irreproachable lives and performed actions worthy of honor, they do serve this.
Uh, but he also winds up by saying, but you know, what’s important here is that we have war on all fronts that we’re facing. So we should probably leave the decision about. Until after the war,
Dr Rad43:00
if I say I haven’t been here.
Dr G43:02
So he does a lot of sort of nice sort of like. I’m
Dr Rad43:07
with you. You deserve this, but just, can we just press pause?
Can we just,
Dr G43:12
I, and it’s me, it’s coming from me, the moderate Patricia. And so, and then Harati has gets up and he’s like, look hilarious. Who’s being very wise here. You know, of course, it’s true that you deserve this and we should definitely look into it, but please, please, please just go on. Fine. Just go flat.
Yeah, just this. It’s going to be important that we do this. This proposal is a great tool by everybody, but everyone is angry about it. So we have this moment where Dionysius lets us know that, um, because it’s postponed through means are like, okay, you’ve convinced us that we need to postpone it, but I’m pretty angry about having to do that.
Not only that. The patricians conservative. Patricians angry about this because basically these two Valerius neurotic have said we’ll make it. So after the
Dr Rad44:10
war, they were
Dr G44:12
counting on that. So they’re like, well, we’re agreeing because it means that we’ll go to the wool, which we really need to do right now.
Oh, pissed off about that. Now I’m going to have to deal with this thing all over again after the war.
Dr Rad44:28
So I wouldn’t have that content clay. I wouldn’t have the wall press the issue.
Dr G44:32
Yeah. So basically these two manage to enrage everybody in, into agreeing with them, but being frustrated by that at the same time Harati is Gaius Claudia steps out to do he’s prepared speech.
Of being a douchebag
Fancy seeing the smell of shit in front of me. Once
Dr Rad45:00
again,
Dr G45:03
he says yes, that the law should be refused all together. And he’s like, that’s a dumb plan. We should go to that war and we should not do that thing afterwards. You know why? Because it’s the right Patricia and thing to do. And no one will be able to tell me otherwise, Thank you very much.
That’s guys bloating. You can find me in my Villa,
Dr Rad45:25
which one? Which one?
Dr G45:27
So that’s annoying. So guys, Claudia says speechies met with outrage
Dr Rad45:34
as planned though,
Dr G45:35
as planned opening the way for who else, but Titus good news is we like gods. There’s a third way. And people like what? It’s not just war and no, no, uh, sort of reward in return for just fighting all the time, because there’s a third way.
And he’s like, yes, yes. Think about
Dr Rad46:00
it the
Dr G46:01
middle way we could have wait for it because nobody’s ever suggested this before. Military tribunes with consular power and people like, no matter what now, the who to what, and everybody loves it. Even the tribunes are kind of like, well, that’s not a hot, bad idea.
Right?
Dr Rad46:22
Okay. So this is where our narratives is sinking up again. Okay, good, good, good, good.
Dr G46:27
Not a half bad idea. And the people love it. They’re like, oh my God
Dr Rad46:35
wagon. I get our sharing power, um, heard
Dr G46:39
of, but this might also be the cliffhanger moment. Okay. To wind
Dr Rad46:44
up this epic.
Dr G46:45
Or as well, I feel like if I go further now,
Dr Rad46:48
fair enough.
Fair enough. Look, we can, we can leave it there. So we’re wrapping up on this cliff, hang a moment where we’re on the brink of potentially introducing a shared plebeian patrician system, overruling Rome. We have to see how this is obviously going to play out in practice, but if we strip it back and put our academic hats on.
I think we can both agree. This probably isn’t really anything to do with this truck, the orders, and actually what’s going on is based on the archeology based on what we can see happening throughout this entire decade. So going all the way from the December all the way through the fall. I think we can say that Rome is an absolute crisis.
You know, there’s obviously economic issues is obviously military and political issues going on. Rome is in real trouble. And this is a restructuring of the state. I think of some of some. So there might have been an element of who’s going to take what role now, but the idea of it being part of the struggle of the orders is probably, actually not quite the headline.
That lady and Dionysius and potentially their sources believed it was
Dr G47:55
maybe not. We definitely got a crisis of some kind, definitely. And the fact that we’re getting to a point where the elite patricians, uh, coming to the table with a suggestion to share power, I think might suggest that there is something, there are rumblings coming from below, which can no longer be ignored.
Absolutely. How that plays out. We will
Dr Rad48:21
see, I think that there is, I think there is trouble in Rome at this point in time. And the patricians have accrued so much power by this point that they are kind of taking the lead in terms of how to fix it, how to address it, that they’re trying to still hold on to their monopoly of power in this time of crisis.
And I think that’s where you get the rumblings from below, because as is often pointed out in the scholarship, the Cobain’s generally. Act at this point of time in terms of protecting themselves and defending themselves, I don’t often go on the aggressive, like everything they’d done, it might seem aggressive.
And that’s how our sources want to play me when it to play out in terms of leaving dynasties and the troopers. But they’re reacting, they’re reacting. They’re always reacting and. Then not setting out to challenge their leaders, but certainly if there is this time of crisis, I think it’s understandable that there would be questions asked about who should be leading room, you know, and who should have a say if there is this problem going on.
So definitely I think the struggle with the audience has played off, but I can totally see that there would be an element of, well who plays the, what now in this whole conversation that’s happening. So it will be interesting to see. What room looks like on the other side. And with that in mind, Dr. Jay it’s time to go to Vic.
Alrighty, sir. This is where we get to rank room, according to his own values. Dr. Jay. Tell us how it works. Ooh.
Dr G49:56
So we have 50 golden Eagles up for grabs across five categories. We will give them a score in each of those categories out of 10 and together we will see how Rome has performed according to its own values.
All right.
Dr Rad50:13
So the first category is military collapse.
Dr G50:16
Ooh. I don’t think we’ve even levied an army
Dr Rad50:18
properly yet, which is interesting actually, because again, At this point in time, serving in the army would have been a real mark of distinction. So it is interesting that that. The thing that they chew. I mean, it is a good weapon to use, but yeah, it’s
Dr G50:34
interesting.
I think it depends on the nature of the conflict. If it’s one that the Senate has maybe made up, I think, I guess the trouble is how do you know if the enemy is truly surrounding you or whether somebody is telling you a whole pack of lies? Those guys they’re just herding sheep
Dr Rad50:55
about that. All right. So no military cloud, no expansion.
I think it will say. And that’s a no, that’s a no that they’re going to be fighting to defend their territory. Once again, diplomacy. Ah, there is some internal diplomacy going on here. There does seem to, yeah, I mean, it’s very manipulative,
Dr G51:12
as Courtney says, counting plan
Dr Rad51:16
mean
Dr G51:16
in a way it is diplomatic. He is now offering.
Something well beyond anything that has ever been offered to the plebeians before,
Dr Rad51:26
and also in my account, the patricians have made concessions about the marriage
Dr G51:33
voted. I’m going home to
Dr Rad51:37
bury that. Oh my God, there’s a, um,
I turned know off. You can call that to play in this either. They literally just gave him maybe a two, I think a two. Okay. So that’s a two we’re tourists. Oh, not really getting it. I mean, there’s a lot of rhetoric going on, but there’s
Dr G51:58
a lot of rhetoric going on and I’d say that maybe if we take the pot of a very conservative patrician white guys, Claudius coming up with a grand and cunning plan might be considered quiet,
Dr Rad52:12
man.
it doesn’t feel safe to man. It feels quite underhanded. I’m willing to give him a one and that’s it. All right. All right. So that’s a three. Okay. Five school is the citizen school. Well, this actually is good. Well,
Dr G52:31
things have been improved remarkably. Yeah. They’re allowed to Colombians and Patricia is now allowed to marry.
Dr Rad52:39
And apparently I think they always were up until December or something around that time. But.
Dr G52:48
And then with this potential for a military tribute with Consolo power is actually quite significant. That’s a big
Dr Rad52:55
step up. Yeah. And then we we’re living under the cliffhanger in terms of what room will look like and how this will play out.
But definitely change has been achieved. That’s definitely been changed chief. So I am almost willing to give it a 10, but wow. Is that going too far? I mean, there is still a war on all fronts. Maybe an eight is safer. Let’s
Dr G53:15
go with nine. Let’s go for that safe. I care.
Dr Rad53:17
That means that we end up Dr. Deanna grand, total of 12 goal and ego.
That’s impressive because there was a lot of really objectionable material in that episode. That is double what they
Dr G53:31
scored for the previous episodes. It’s impressive.
Dr Rad53:34
You know, I think the difference. There’s a lot of Cobain talk, not so much Patricia chit-chat that’s the case. All right. Well, join us next time to see exactly how this potentially sharing of power goes on in Romania.
Dr G53:51
How’s this going to work?
Dr Rad53:53
Yeah, this is a new world for Rome. This is jealousy is to be turning point for rearing. So, so exciting.
Dr G53:58
Yeah, forget consuls. It’s now military tribunes with consular power.
Dr Rad54:01
If you think it sounds like a mouthful because it is.
[…] seems to have been created out of the need for a new way forward from the role of the consuls. In our previous episode we encountered them for the first time as part of a patrician plan to placate plebeian discontent […]