Do you get excited by a trip to the office supply store? Is The Home Edit your favourite show on Netflix? Then this is the episode for you! The Romans are in an organisation frenzy. Grab your red tape, post-its, a sword, and we’re off to 443 BCE. Expect some bureaucracy and civil war in Ardea.
Episode 125 – Big Trouble in Little Ardea
Struggle of the Orders? Or Struggle to find some Order?
Last episode, there was a major shift with the introduction of military tribunes with consular authority. Our major narrative sources, Livy and Dionysius, would have us believe that this was all part of the so called ‘Struggle of the Orders’, a way for plebeians to have access to consular power with tarnishing the office of consul with their gross cooties. However, it seems that Rome might have been restructuring the state to better address their needs. They were living in a 440s world and needed a state structure to match.
The Censor is Born
In 443 BCE, the focus was on the census. The census had first been carried out by King Servius Tullius. Since then, a few have been carried out during the early republic. But 443 BCE was a turning point. Everyone could see the need for a census. Gotta have that data! The consuls were not keen to take on this additional task. Acquiring enormous amounts of personal details takes time and effort. Just ask Google! It was also not exactly illustrious work. The consuls would much rather be charging off into battle or parading around the Forum in a fancy toga than crunching numbers.
As a result, it was proposed that a new magistracy should be established. The censor and his band of assistants were officially in charge of regulating the census. Hopefully, there would not be any more large gaps in between censuses.
A map the region with Ardea and Rome highlighted.
Source: Omnis Rereum Romanitatum
Ardea Brings the Drama
Ardea has been a theme over the last few episodes. Ever since the Roman people decided to seize some of their territory, Ardea has been a sore point. The Romans don’t usually feel this much guilt! They are very keen to help out when a civil war starts raging in the city.
The domestic tension in Ardea began with a smoking hot plebeian girl. Isn’t it always the way? This nameless woman attracted the attention of a plebeian and patrician man. Her family disagreed about which man she should marry. The escalated quickly beyond a family dispute into total civil war in Ardea. Yep, that tracks. It’s Big Trouble in Little Ardea.
Will the Romans be able to prevent Ardea from total destruction? Tune in to find out!
- M. Geganius M. f. – n. Macerinus (Pat.) – Cos. 447, 437
- T. Quinctius L. f. L. n. Capitolinus Barbatus (Pat.) – Cos. 471, 468, 465, 446, 449
- L. Papirius – f. – n. Mugillanus (Pat.) – Cos. Suff. 444
- L. Sempronius A. f. – n. Atratinus (Pat.) – Cos. Suff. 444
- Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Roman Antiquities, 11.63.
- Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.8-10.
- Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
- Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)
- Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press)
Thanks to BBC Sounds (Beta), Pixabay, Fesliyan Studios, and Orange Free Sounds for sound effects and the thrilling Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.
When Dr G mentions the patricians getting close to having imperium at approximately the 37 minute mark, she meant to say plebeians.
Sacrifice scene during a census from the Altar of Domitius Ahenobarbus known as the “Census frieze”. This piece dates to the late 2nd century BCE. Image courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.
Automatically Generated Transcript
Automatically Generated Transcript courtesy of Otter AI. We are exploring options with transcripts but hopefully the software has managed to understand the Latin and our Australian accents.
Dr Rad 0:16
Welcome to The Partial Historians,
Dr G 0:20
we explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:23
Everything from the political scandals, the love of ours, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 0:34
And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 0:43
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr G 1:10
Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am Dr. G.
Dr Rad 1:18
And I am Dr. Rad Welcome.
Dr G 1:21
Welcome, welcome. Welcome to this episode where we are on the tail end of 444 BCE. And in this episode, we’re going to start by looking at 443 BC.
Dr Rad 1:36
That’s right as we trace the journey for him from the founding of the city, we’re in some very interesting times a real turning point one might say Dr. G,
Dr G 1:47
is a real turning point. We’ve just had this idea come to the surface of replacing the consulship, in some instances with military tribunes with controller power. And as this flow and effects of this decision start to play out, we’re going to see some interesting things come up in the history. Whether that happens this year in particular, we will find out together
Dr Rad 2:14
indeed, let’s do a very quick recap of what happened in 444, Dr. G. So there’s a lot of tension, as you said about whether they’re going to have military Tribune’s or whether they’re going to have consuls. But the last time we were talking, they chose military Tribune’s, but then they got kicked out of office. But not because they were doing a terrible job just because there were some problems with the way they were elected.
Dr G 2:40
Apparently, apparently, the auspices were taken incorrectly and something to do with the house.
Dr Rad 2:45
Indeed. So we ended up getting consuls, after all, so much for all of that.
Dr G 2:52
Oh consuls, we’re back with the old stock and Fada. All right,
Dr Rad 2:56
Indeed, indeed. But there’s also been some ongoing issues with a day out because of a terrible decision that the Romans made a few years ago now. But it just keeps coming back to haunt them where the Romans basically took land that didn’t really belong to them when they were meant to be arbitrating a dispute. And the Danz haven’t been very happy ever since
Dr G 3:17
they have not. And this has led to an ongoing consequence, where the day ends in 444 Send some ambassadors to Rome to talk this over. So while we’ve been expecting a lot of warfare to be on the scene, the idea being that military Tribune’s with consular power constitute a bigger body of people holding that Imperium to lead armies and do this sort of stuff. What we’re seeing instead is a lot of diplomacy and conversations happening. So there does seem to be a little bit of a disjuncture between this idea and concept of military tribunals with consular power as a necessity for facing of great numbers of enemies coming from all directions. And what seems to be the political reality of some maybe some boring conversations that the Romans have to have with all of their neighbours about exactly how they’re going to pull their finger out and stop being assholes.
Dr Rad 4:14
So with that being said, let’s jump right into full 43 B C. All right, Dr. J. So who are your consuls for this year?
Dr G 4:27
I have the consuls Marcus could gone yes mess arenas consul for the second time did and Titus Quint tears capital liners consul for the fifth time?
Dr Rad 4:40
Yeah. Now these two are quite a contrast because gayness was consul in 447, which was that really mysterious year just after all the drama of the second December it the second secession of the plebs, all of that stuff that had happened? We had that really bizarre year where we had almost no information And he was cancelled during that year where they were, I think just trying to prevent civil war from erupting in Rome, basically. And that’s when the young patrician started to get out of hand. So he was cancelled on that year. Capital lioness, on the other hand, oh, he’s had some big concealer years in his path. And it’s
Dr G 5:15
also an open question about whether this might be two people as well, because the year spread for these consul chips is quite wide. So first consulship 471. Yeah, second, 468. And five. That was the big one. Yeah. 446. And we’re now in this situation where we’re it’s also 443.
Dr Rad 5:40
Yeah, absolutely. So there’s been some that have been quite recent, but then it’s been going back a while. You getting on? He’s getting on,
Dr G 5:47
he must be pretty old by
Dr Rad 5:48
this point. Yeah. But experience, which is what the Romans like,
Dr G 5:51
a man with experience, they say
Dr Rad 5:55
indeed. All right. So what is going to happen in this year?
Dr G 5:59
Well, that’s a great question, because I’ve basically got a paragraph and then dynasties of Harlequin SS cuts off forever. For a while. It may be the end of book 11. But when book 12 comes into play, we’re missing some information.
Dr Rad 6:16
Wow, this is a historic episode then. Because for the past, what, eight or nine years, as we’ve been tracing the journey of Rome for the founding of the city, I have been reading Levy and you have been reading Dionysius, and he finally broke it off. But it’s actually amazing. We managed to keep going. So
Dr G 6:36
it is a problem. He’s had a little bit of gap before now once or twice, just briefly, but this is going to be a chunk of a few years. Right. But I’ll give you what’s in the paragraph that I’ve got. So it seems that there have been some issues with the Senate neglecting certain aspects of the way that Rome operates. So because there’s been so many military expeditions, and I’m sure our ongoing listeners will be aware that we’ve been dealing with a lot of sort of military backwards and forwards Rome, having issues with her neighbours, yes. And solving them by picking up some pointy sticks and running at them really quickly. Yes. And this means that other things on the homefront have been neglected, one of the most essential of which is the census.
Dr Rad 7:26
Ah, yes, this census Gudo red tape, get out the administrative gears.
Dr G 7:33
If Romans love anything, it becomes apparent as time goes on that they love bureaucratic process. Yeah, they like keeping tabs on everybody. And they like records. And this feeds into how we understand the modern world in many respects, because these guys are all over bureaucracy. So they get people together, they count them in various ways, and then they categorise them based on the stuff they own. Harsh. Yeah. It’s not they don’t care about who you are as a person. It’s not about personalities are about kindness. So what about your contribution to the community? It’s about how much stuff you’ve got
Dr Rad 8:09
is interesting, isn’t it? When you think about it, because I guess we’re so used to thinking in those sorts of terms. But we do live in a capitalist society. It’s kind of interesting to have this kind of measure. I said,
Dr G 8:20
this is a proto capitalistic society. Yeah, feel it with these kinds of ideas. This sense in which people’s worth is measured by the stuff that they possess. Yeah, is idiosyncratic. And there is no way if we’re thinking about like history, and we’re thinking about the different peoples and societies that have existed, there is no reason why this should be the way things are measured. And the fact that it’s the way the Romans measure it. And we can see ourselves in the depths of a pretty interesting version of capitalism right now. Those things are connected.
Dr Rad 8:54
Absolutely. The interesting twist to the census, the way that Romans do it, is that there is this moral dimension, which becomes introduced as well, eventually, where it’s not just about as you say what you own, although that is obviously important. But it is also about how you’re conducting yourself as to whether you’re going to be classed, you know, a certain way. That’s something that develops as time goes on. But also, I feel like the reason why they want to know how much stuff you have is because they do expect people who have a lot to give back in certain ways as well, whether that’s military service, or whatever. Do they though I think they do in the sense of they want to know what people own to they can figure out who’s going to serve what capacity in a military sense.
Dr G 9:40
Yes, yeah. Although to be honest, the more stuff that you’ve got, the more likely you are to be classified as patrician, which means you basically get to be an officer. Rather than a foot soldier.
Dr Rad 9:54
That’s really heavy. We’re gonna say gentleman
Dr G 9:57
you get to be making decisions not necessarily risking your own life, although you do get kudos for risking Europe
Dr Rad 10:05
totally smacks of say, you know, British Army First World War, you know, if you’re higher class, you’re more likely to be you’re gonna be an officer. Whereas if you’re low class, you’re going to be you know, in the frontlines, and that sort of entirely smacks of that I hate it. I hate everything about it. But it is a little different to the way that we would understand the census these days.
Dr G 10:25
Certainly. And it turns out that there hasn’t been census for quite some time. And this is a problem. And the the new consuls bring this to our attention. And it is notable that in 443, that we do have consuls again. We’ve just yeah, we’ve just created the Romans have just created not we, the Romans just created this new role, military tributes with controller power. Yeah. And we’ve literally only had three of them in place for 73 days, according to datasets of Harlequin SS. And we’re up to what is perhaps the second year of it being possible to have this position
Dr Rad 11:02
filled. It’s not the most inspiring start have ever seen.
Dr G 11:06
Is this the new wave of change we’ve been seeing in Rome, no.
Dr Rad 11:11
Social change was always very smooth.
Dr G 11:15
They had the idea, but they haven’t really run with the concept. Yeah,
Dr Rad 11:18
this is interesting. And this is often seen as being one of those turning point years. So we talked in quite some depth when we were talking about the military tribute idea, and that whole plebs vying for the consulship wanting to overturn the marriage laws that supposedly forbade into marriage between patrician and plebeian. We did discuss how this could be a bit of an organisational turning point for the Roman state could be where they looked around and said, You know, when things have changed, things have changed in the last 50 or so years, we need to update the system. And that might be at the heart of what’s really going on here. I feel like this censorship position is also a part of that. The rejigging of the Roman state, because when we talked about the census previously, I actually think it’s been mostly associated with the Regal period, we’ve had one or two, we’ve definitely mentioned a few since then, like we’ve had some citizen counts and that sort of stuff. But the big moment for the census was when it was introduced by the kings.
Dr G 12:23
And it is interesting that we’re at this point where they’re like, wait a minute, we haven’t done one of those for ages. Yeah, because it gives the sense very much that this is not yet a procedural thing that’s done with any particular pattern to it. Yeah. It’s something that people are like, Oh, we couldn’t do it. We haven’t done it. Oh, well, until somebody gets to a point you’re like, you know, what would be really good idea? We haven’t had one of those for a while. Absolutely. Well, those are not fully legislated. And the traditions are not fully set, you
Dr Rad 12:53
know? No. And they also come along with those ceremonies of purification. So we know we have talked about a census once or twice. I know, we’ve mentioned the last room before where the city is purified at the end of the whole census procedure. But yeah, it, it has all of those connotations to it, so I can understand that they’ve probably been far too busy to bother with this kind of stuff.
Dr G 13:17
Fair enough, fair enough. So that’s pretty much all that I have for 443 BCE. The only other source that I’ve got is Diodorus Siculus, who has come up a couple of times. For me when we’ve got a gap with datasets or Halycon. SS, he’s not known for being the most reputable source. He epitomises other histories. He reads widely, it seems but doesn’t really go out of his way to access everything. Like he’s sort of grabs what’s at hand and goes with it. He’s from Sicily, originally, which is where the Siculus in his name comes from. And he does end up in Rome, and he’s writing in between the sword about 6030 BCE. So a long time after the events that he’s recounting his take on 4443 keep wanting to say 43 We’re definitely not up to that. 443 BCE is mostly a thing in history and what’s going on with them and their particular battles. Right. And so and that consumes most of it, he does mention the consuls, he gets the names pretty, right. So that’s
Dr Rad 14:28
pretty right. Do the names we’re talking about.
Dr G 14:31
I know and he often gets them pretty wrong. But he does get them pretty right this time. Like Marcus could Gardius Masaru Yunus is correct. Okay. And he gives us tightest, Quintus right. Just leaves off the capital lineup.
Dr Rad 14:44
Oh, okay. That’s all right. Yeah,
Dr G 14:46
I’m giving us like a 90%. No, no,
Dr Rad 14:48
you said pretty rad. I’m like, what did he change? No. All right. Well, I have a little bit more detail about this whole censorship process. I mean, it honestly feels really unnerving for Livi to have more detailed and Dionysius on these sorts of things. I’m really excited about this, if not crazy announced, because this is live we were talking about. But there’s a bit more discussion about this actual role of sensor being created. So rather than it being something that happens, or for example, that the consuls might carry out in place of the kings who used to carry it out, they talk about creating this actual office of sensel. Which is why it seems like a bit of an organisational turning point, you know, fine tuning that bureaucracy. It’s exciting times here the partials and stories.
Dr G 15:39
Do you want to brand new role in our government?
Dr Rad 15:43
Yeah, exactly. So the consuls are still kind of preoccupied by the fact that Rome, still in a vaguely threatening situation militarily? We haven’t discussed the fact that war seem to be looming.
Dr G 15:56
The Fog of War surrounds us. We can’t see the enemy, though. Yes.
Dr Rad 16:01
And so carrying out a census, obviously, it’s a huge amount of work in terms of counting all the citizens figuring out what jobs they do, how much property they have, and all of that kind of stuff. And it was seen as being beneath the dignity of a consul out. I know. And that’s why they decide we really need someone who is going to be the magistrate for this thing.
Dr G 16:23
I like being the big decider. I don’t want to have to deal with all of the little decisions that go with being a censor, basically. Yeah.
Dr Rad 16:29
So I how can we free up some mental space for the consul? You know, I mean, the burnt out band, it’s bigger issues to think about, yeah, how are they going to have those big picture, leadership visions, all their time is taken up with administration, the new CI of the bureaucracy, no time for it. So they decide we really need to have different magistrates, who are going to have people that are going to help them out to take charge of the records, and really make this a more regular orchestrated thing. So the senators love this idea, because this would mean more Patricia magistrates in Rome, Dr. J.
Dr G 17:15
Oh, thrilling stuff. That’s just what Rome leads.
Dr Rad 17:19
Yeah, the patrician see big things ahead for this. So like, if we get the right type of people, and by the right type of people, I mean, important patricians into this role, it would naturally become an important Madrasi. To see it, you can just see it happening. It would have that certain. Tata.
Dr G 17:40
Yes. It’s good to have that ring of influence about it, isn’t it?
Dr Rad 17:44
Exactly. And of course, the tribune of the plebs being dull as they are, they have no problem with this because they see it as something that is just a function, you know, that needs to be performed. I think it just has to happen. Not something that is necessarily super important, and they also want to be seen as troublemakers heaven forbid that they see as troublemakers in the room. Wow,
Dr G 18:07
the tribune of the plebs. They’ve really settled down as last year or two, haven’t they?
Dr Rad 18:12
Well, I think this is a bit of that elite bias coming in, perhaps, and also completely written with hindsight, because we know that the Office of sensor does become important. We know that people like Augustus are going to end up wielding it to great effect by the time that Livy is writing, so I feel like he is being overly snooty and insinuating that they should have somehow foreseen what this position was going to end up
Dr G 18:41
with. This is a miss by the tribune of the plebs. Exactly. They should have registered some complaint
Dr Rad 18:47
early on pretty much. Yeah, exactly. So the very, very top people aren’t particularly interested in taking on this position, because it isn’t super important. So
Dr G 18:58
I’m like work as well. And if I was a patrician, I’m not sure I’d be in for that. Oh,
Dr Rad 19:03
it’s definitely a game if you do have helpers, but I actually have some name. Oh, yeah. I don’t even know. Dionysius gave you names on it. No, you get Okay, so I’ve got one Lucius purpureus new Gleaners. And I’ve also got one Lucius sim Prunus at truthiness,
Dr G 19:26
whose name I think we weren’t sounds familiar. Actually,
Dr Rad 19:29
they both had been Suffect consuls in the previous year. Okay, so they really should ring a lot of bells
Dr G 19:38
should have rung more bells that rang
Dr Rad 19:39
for me. Yeah, absolutely. It’s at this point. So census is all wrapped up by this point. It’s at this point that the envoys from a data arrived again, they’re in desperate need of help because their city is on the verge of collapse. They tried to keep things as peaceful as possible. And you know, just keep it under wraps because that’s what Roman wanted but they are in a position where civil war seems imminent. There are factions that are threatening to tear a day are apart. And this is all had its roots in a private conflict when a hot plebeian girl attracted the interest of both a patrician and plebeian be prepared for a soap opera ensuing. Yeah, I’m excited. This is this is what this is what it helps the factions to develop. Okay, sounding a little bit like the Virginia story in a way or work in Yeah, sorry. Basically, the Libyan guy obviously needed the approval of her family. The patrician guy, on the other hand, he was really just interested in her because of her very good looks. Yes, yes, classic, patrician move. Yeah. This, of course, had led to lots of party strife in the household of the girl about the politics of these guys and the factions that they come from. The mother preferred the noble, but also the patrician, I should say, because obviously, he would offer her certain opportunities in life. And he she wanted her daughter to marry as well as possible, but her guardian thought it was important to ally with their fellow plebeian, Okay, interesting in debt, and they really couldn’t resolve the matter in their own household. And therefore, this results in a huge legal case, and the magistrates had ended up deciding in the favour of the mother and allowing this girl to marry the patrician. Now, I’m just going to flag here that in the translation that I was looking at, it mentions that the patrician was from the Optima Artis party.
Dr G 21:37
Oh, that seems way too early for the optimizer to come into play. It is Aster is listeners?
Dr Rad 21:44
Definitely. This is something that is very much i term I would associate with the late Republic,
Dr G 21:50
and even then, late Republican historians still are unclear about exactly what would make somebody in optimality, as opposed to the other faction, which is the popularities.
Dr Rad 22:04
Yes, I think the general jest and again, it makes sense, I suppose given when Levy’s writing, and I probably should have consulted the original Latin. But as usual, I forget to do that. But I presume it because of the notations in this that they had already done that. I think the connotation is meant to be that this patrician is very much about the elites in his allegiance, not the people. I mean, I think that’s what we’re meant to get from this. But yeah,
Dr G 22:32
it’s just that he’s a conservative leaning, patrician elite. Yeah,
Dr Rad 22:37
I just thought it was really interesting. He
Dr G 22:39
must be very good looking.
Dr Rad 22:42
I know, right?
Dr G 22:43
It seems he’s forsaken all of his class values.
Dr Rad 22:47
One would think for this woman just because she’s hot. Yeah. Wow.
Dr G 22:53
He Rome sobered up in 443.
Dr Rad 22:57
So much drama. Anyway. So what ends up happening is of course, after this legal decision is made, her guardians are not prepared to abide by this decision. So they decided they’re going to publicly address a crowd of their fellow plebeians about how ridiculously unfair this decision was the guardians and get together again and abduct a girl from her mother’s house. Wow. I told you this is a total soap opera idea, coming to the rescue. Anyway, so this is obviously very, very problematic, very dramatic at this point in time. But the patrician is hardly going to let it’s he got to be kidding. He gets together again in his own war like aristocrats of course. Yes, absolutely. So literally gang warfare breaking out as a result of this girl and her good looks. I mean, hello. Hello, Troy.
Dr G 23:54
Yeah, there’s some really interesting parallels here,
Dr Rad 23:58
isn’t there? Yeah. This results in a battle and the plebeians on the streets. Yeah. Okay. I mean, it doesn’t specify but I presumed Yeah, results in a battle that Cobain’s end up losing, but they set up a camp on a hill and then from their camp, they go forward and destroy the farms of the patricians and they started thinking that maybe we’re just gonna lay siege to the whole of our data. Why? Why stop at just five? Why stop at just patricians? Let’s just go nuts. Other people have started to join them, not for their lofty moral reasons, but because they just want stuff.
Dr G 24:35
Dr Rad 24:36
I can see our day have been pretty annoyed at this point. This is why the Danes have come to Rome and been like, Excuse me. We seem to be in a spot of
Dr G 24:47
and there is some private interests taking hold around our homeland and we’re not best pleased. Yeah.
Dr Rad 24:53
So the patrician faction in our day, it had been the ones to ask for help from Rome, right? So we have to imagine the envoys speaking and very often he’s written in on a beret, wearing tweed with elbow patches. On the other hand, the plebeians have sent for help from the vole skins who are all smart move. Yeah. Who are also in the same region, as Rome and idea?
Dr G 25:21
Well, well, yeah. So if we’re thinking about visualising this on a map of Rome, think of Rome as being in the centre of the map idea is to the south west, on the shore, it’s on it’s a coastal town. And the whole skins are to the south east of Rome. And so they’re kind of sitting at the same sort of like, is it longitude as they are, but there’s latitude,
Dr Rad 25:43
latitude. You know, I remember next I had to teach geography for a little while. Oh, latitude is flat a tude?
Dr G 25:50
Yeah, I have issues with things that involve the nature of the globe, where how you name winds, and also reading clocks. I’m gonna put them all together as issues that I have. So the volsky i are sort of the neighbours of our data, but also neighbours of Rome. Yes. Yes. And historically, one of Rome’s greatest enemies at this point,
Dr Rad 26:12
Oh, definitely. There’s been so much conflict between them. So they’ve all skins send out a rescue party led by clue alias. Name, we might remember. Yes, yes. And equi include alias. And they get to our day at first, and they start hoping to procedure there because they seem to go along with this idea that Sure. Let’s just besiege the town. Well, the
Dr G 26:38
volsky. I have an interest in our data, and they have done for quite some time. And that’s been facilitated by the fact that Rome has weakened our day as defences over time as well. So the volsky I have this reputation of sort of popping in under the radar, as Rome has weakened somewhere and being like, and now it’s out
Dr Rad 26:55
and we’re being like, hey, wait a minute. And there is often an association between the old skins and the alien. So this all adds up. Yeah. So the Romans, of course, hear about what’s happening. So one of the consuls, Marcos Giga Aeneas ends up leaving with an army to assist in the situation. When they are getting close to enemy forces. He obviously sets up his camp, he lets his soldiers you know, splash some water on their face, freshen up a little bit, put on some new mascara, you know, get out the pumps, and that sort of thing. Then they march out, though, so fast that at sunrise of Oskins realise, oh my goodness, we’re actually in a bit of a risky situation. The Romans are here. Yeah, dammit. The position that were in is actually kind of even worse than a day is positioned right now given where the Romans have set up camp and how quickly they’ve managed to try it out against us. Gainey has also managed to ensure that his friends in our day out could come and go as they please. So the moleskin is clearly had not managed to completely surround the city in this huge. The foreskin commander also did not have food supplies stored in advance which
Dr G 28:08
Wait a minute. Yeah. That is a logistical error of a high magnitude How long did they expect to be on the field?
Dr Rad 28:16
Well, I think this is the thing I think this is why they got there first, they didn’t really think about it too much.
Dr G 28:21
They just were like were around
Dr Rad 28:23
earlier for Popeye, no problems. And so he’s men had been relying on just foraging in the local area for food and now he finds he has no supplies. This is probably why he realises he’s in a worse situation than Isaiah because the Romans that probably cut him off from any real food, no
Dr G 28:42
foraging for you. Back to the camp, and hungry
Dr Rad 28:47
so naturally, he does the smart thing and ask again so they can enter into negotiations. Okay, like look, if the Romans are intending to put an end to the siege, why don’t we just call it quits, we’ll just we’ll just go home, okay, by the Romans and not say, loves the chubby. You attacked our allies. You don’t just get to walk away. The gain is demands that what they need to do is hand over their general lay down their arms admit that they have been soundly beaten and give into Roman authority. If they refuse, the Romans would be dead. Adam is for all eternity. Wow. Yes, Ganey is you might be gathering
Dr G 29:40
he sounds like a little bit of a douchebag. But,
Dr Rad 29:43
you know, he’s determined that he’s gonna go home with a resounding
Dr G 29:48
victory. I was gonna say he wants a trial. Oh, yeah. And he’s gonna find a way to get one.
Dr Rad 29:52
Absolutely. And he also doesn’t want a kind of slushy piece. You want something that’s going to look Really impressive volsky? I
Dr G 30:02
don’t on your knees. Exactly. The vols
Dr Rad 30:04
games, of course, can’t really agree to these conditions because I just watch evaluating. And so they are forced to enter into battle with the Romans in a position that’s not really
Dr G 30:13
great. Never go into battle on an empty stomach.
Dr Rad 30:17
Right? Always carry a Snickers. Always Yes, you know yourself when you’re hungry. They’re not only starting in a bad position, but they’re also in a situation where if things don’t go well for them, they’re not going to be able to run away very easily. Ah, yes. So spoiler, the decimal.
Dr G 30:37
Oak, come on volsky. I, I mean, I feel for them. I feel like the thing to have done here would have been to be like, we just need to go back and talk about your suggestions. And we’ll come back to you with an answer. Go back to camp pack it up quickly and run away. Yeah, exactly. So
Dr Rad 30:51
what a failure of strategy so terrible that they beg the Romans just for the battle. I don’t know what that looks like in the middle of a battle, but I’m imagining they just thought of dropping to their knees dropping their swords. I’m guessing
Dr G 31:03
that there is signals of surrender. Yeah. universally known in the area. Yes. And
Dr Rad 31:09
so they willingly then hand over their command hand over their weapons, and they are made to pass under the yoke with a single garment each. Oh, completely humiliated. Yes. Now
Dr G 31:21
passing under the yoke. This is something that we have encountered before we have and it is what seems to be a ritual that encompasses both humiliation to a certain degree for the defeated, but is also a ritual acknowledgement of their failure and their consent in some ways to fall under Roman leadership,
Dr Rad 31:45
which is an interesting one, isn’t it? So the remaining defeated vole skins once I’ve gone through this process, they set up camp near Tusculum. We haven’t talked about Tascam for a while. I like Tusculum, though, it’s cute. I know. The testicle ends. However, I’m holding on to an old grudge, no doubt made during one of the numerous conflicts between Rome who would have been assisted by the task, gluons, who are the allies and the volsky ones who are traditional enemies. And so they decide that they’re going to attack this foreseeing camp, even though they are clearly in no position to fight back. And as a result, they’re apparently on the very few survivors from this volcano.
Dr G 32:27
Okay, so Tusculum turn up and and finish off what Rome has had started essentially, well,
Dr Rad 32:34
only because of our skins go near them. Okay, as they retreating, they set up a cabinet. artikelen. Right. And so they’re, I guess, just taking refuge there. Yeah, hospitals aren’t having that now and it because it does seem to be an interesting force that the Vols skins have assembled here. I’m not even sure how official this army is meant to be. Exactly. But certainly it is a group of people from the moleskin area. But how official it is it’s a bit unclear. So they had retreated in disgrace. Maybe they just didn’t want to go home that had happened.
Dr G 33:08
So the volsky I have retreated visually on the map. They’ve retreated to the east. And Tusculum is one of these places that is in the foothills of the Albion Hills. Yeah, so they’re sort of heading back towards their homeland. But they have to pass by tussle and to some degree in order to get there. Yeah, they’ve ventured too close.
Dr Rad 33:31
Maybe I mean, maybe because they pass under the yoke. I mean, maybe they were kind of going into that area because it is associated with Roman Roman allies and Roman control hospital and didn’t
Dr G 33:41
know that the yoke passing had already
Dr Rad 33:43
they didn’t. You got into your kidney. These guys. Anyway, so the Romans are now free to restore order in our day out which they do very efficiently. Typical Redmond style, just chop off the heads of the people that started the trouble. Wow, yeah. Then Then let’s take that property and put it in the public treasury. Now everybody’s happy
Dr G 34:07
in the public treasury of a day out or in the public treasury of room doesn’t say
Dr Rad 34:11
but I’m presuming on day because they are restoring order in Yeah, yeah. The day in Sorry, I shouldn’t say the dance. The odd dance apparently is what they called a dance just seems so
Dr G 34:22
you can say all day. And so it’s a very English thing. Let’s okay.
Dr Rad 34:25
Yeah. The day is felt that the Romans had now repaid the debt. So after that terrible decision that they made, they have helped them out. But the Roman senate is actually still feeling really guilty about that thing. They just the disgrace really hangs over Rome for years and years, according to Libby’s account. So again, it goes back to Rome, anyway, of course, gets his triumph. Exactly feeling pretty good about himself. Kubilius, a guy that had been the commander of the volsky in forces is made to walk in front of his chariot, there is all the booty taken from the moleskin army before they made them pass under the yoke. So that’s all looking pretty good for him. Quint Diaz capital lioness also is singled out for praise by levy because whilst the gayness was off doing all that kind of stuff, he made sure that there was peace in Rome itself, making sure that law was justly applied, whether you are a patrician or whether you’re a poor being my
Dr G 35:28
normal gang warfare, no more chasing after pretty women in the streets,
Dr Rad 35:32
or ducting urine relative
Dr G 35:36
has been a tough year for this kind of thing.
Dr Rad 35:38
Yeah, so the Senate is really happy because I presume by Senators levy also is obviously just meeting patricians more generally, they are happy with Quintos capital owners because they see him as being you know, a strict console someone who’s keeping things in line. But the plebeians are not alienated by his strictness. They don’t see him as super oppressive, they see him as someone who’s got a lot of personal dignity and integrity, integrity, and they’re happy to work with him. He can hold his own against the Tribune, so kind of everybody is happy. I think, as we were flagging, at the beginning of this episode, the fact that he has held the console ship so many times and seemingly over such a long period of time. He is an older man, by this point, his experience counts for a lot. He’s very beloved by the whole population. He’s well known to everybody. Yeah, absolutely. And he carries himself well, he’s he’s fair. You know, he’s strict, but he’s fair. And live. He says that by this stage of his career, he himself is almost more revered than the office of consulship itself.
Dr G 36:47
Dr Rad 36:48
patting myself a bit here. And because gayness and Quintus capital liners are doing such a great job in terms of internal harmony, external victories. I mean, come on. Oh, can you what people are forgetting about the idea of military tributes? Oh, yeah, when you got men like these on the block, who has
Dr G 37:12
time for it? Oh, just when the patricians have this sights on being able to have some proper Imperium. Alright, everyone’s like that. It’s going really well with the consuls. Now. Don’t worry about it. Exactly.
Dr Rad 37:23
So that is where I wrap up the year for 43. Before
Dr G 37:29
a year, thank you for sharing Levy’s account. I wish I had something to share in return.
Dr Rad 37:34
Look, I can’t believe that Dionysius breaks off just before that soap opera I know. But anyway, that means Dr. G, that it is time now for
Dr G 37:44
about your big
Dr Rad 37:50
thank you. Ego, you rejoined us again near to go see the eagle return in Z?
Dr G 37:58
Well, the partial pit room has the potential to earn 50 Golden Eagles across five categories, each ranked out of 10. Let’s find out together how well Rome is performing against their own criteria. Okay. Military cloud.
Dr Rad 38:16
Well, I mean, it’s pretty good guy. Got it. It
Dr G 38:20
does all right for himself doesn’t really does well. Doesn’t get any better than that. Only when the two consuls go out and and have success, I think Oh, and
Dr Rad 38:29
also, I mean, if we think about what he’s actually doing, I mean, resolving this kind of conflict. I don’t know if it’s the most illustrious thing I’ve ever seen. So he’s probably give him maybe like a seven.
Dr G 38:41
Okay, yeah, yeah, I was gonna say it’s not a full tan. I don’t think I’m that great. I think we’ve seen better and I think Ron can do
Dr Rad 38:46
I mean, he milked the most of this opportunity. There’s no doubt about that.
Dr G 38:51
That means we move on to diplomacy.
Dr Rad 38:55
Well, okay. Even though obviously, warfare tends to imply that diplomacy has failed. I think the Romans did kind of try like there was some negotiating it was pretty strict.
Dr G 39:09
I don’t know. I mean, isn’t it the case that our day I came to them to negotiate? I think we could say that the Danes are engaging in diplomacy. And Rome has responded by sending an armed force that’s which may or may not have worked out for our dear. But is that diplomatic? Maybe? Maybe not. Yeah,
Dr Rad 39:27
that’s true. Okay, so maybe like, I don’t know, one.
Dr G 39:31
I was gonna say maybe three, so I could go with a two perhaps. Okay. All right. Expansion.
Dr Rad 39:37
Well, not really. I mean, they’re just settling a civil dispute and a neighbor’s area.
Dr G 39:44
They definitely haven’t gained more territory. That is that is a firm zero. Yeah, we’re tours. Hmm, I’ll look a goddess is doing some pretty. Like he’s being strict. He’s being really clear about what he wants. Yeah. And he succeeds in getting it. That’s true. So from a Roman perspective, not only has he been courageous in putting forward a really robust position of what he wants, yeah, but he’s also found the means in order to acquire it. Like when it comes to battle, he goes in and takes it.
Dr Rad 40:14
Oh, yeah. And the Romans, just particularly the Senate, and the patricians are feeling a really strong sense of shame over the whole business with our day or and ruin, basically stealing its territory.
Dr G 40:27
So this is kind of like a redemptive meeting moment as well, more broadly. Yeah, for Rome to sort of maybe rectify some of the poor decisions it’s made in the past with relation to our data.
Dr Rad 40:38
Having said that, though, I don’t know that is again, the best example I’ve ever seen.
Dr G 40:44
No, I’m not. I’m not gonna suggest that. No, but I think there is some weird to us at play for sure. And Romans at the time would have been like, there is some weird words here. Yeah. Recognise where to us.
Dr Rad 40:54
Even Quincy has capitalised. I mean, is a little bit different, obviously. But the fact that Livi singles him out for particular praise
Dr G 41:02
Rila. Is a good looking, do I have to form again?
Dr Rad 41:11
So maybe I don’t know if five? Yeah, okay.
Dr G 41:15
All right. And that leaves us with the final category, which is the citizens score. How nice is it to be a Roman citizen, walking the streets in this year.
Dr Rad 41:26
Okay. Not great in the sense that after fighting so hard to get military tribute into the consular authority, so that plebeians can hold very important officers, they’re not getting that so that’s not great. However, the plebeians are said to be satisfied with their leaders at this point in time, and justice is apparently being administered fairly, regardless of what group you belong to. And ramesside.
Dr G 41:52
There also, is a patrician gang coming after a plebeian group. Well, yes, but that’s,
Dr Rad 42:00
that’s an idea that
Dr G 42:01
well, but But
Dr Rad 42:04
I there was also Toby and Patricia, and Holger knows,
Dr G 42:10
there is some Yeah, I mean, I have some questions. And maybe a day doesn’t count under this sort of? Well, I
Dr Rad 42:15
think that’s the question. Yeah. Are we including what is happening in our data? Because that story I told you is definitely and I, Dan.
Dr G 42:25
Yeah. And I guess not. I think they would be that’s definitely not how this category works. This is how good it is to be a Roman citizen right now. Yes, yes. And Roman citizens seem to be pretty happy with their lot right now.
Dr Rad 42:39
Yeah, I think so. Yeah. So maybe like a fun? Yeah, it’s
Dr G 42:43
not it’s not like they’ve had great concessions or anything. It’s not like the A lot has improved. But it certainly hasn’t gone backwards.
Dr Rad 42:50
No. And as I say, the main thing that they’re always concerned about, and this is where the patricians so they tend to get uppity and demand more rights, and all of that kind of thing when they are being treated unfairly, which makes sense. At the moment, they’re not being treated badly. They’re not being treated as second class citizens in the sense that it’s not in a way that they’ve noticed at a time to come. No, I mean, they are obviously always, but it’s not in such a way that’s like so egregious that
Dr G 43:24
they have to say something, yes. Speak. No, we’re being oppressed.
Dr Rad 43:28
There aren’t people being, you know, murdered in the streets. So that’s a win as far as that consent, which means strategy, that we have a grand total of 19 Golden Eagles for room this time. I think that’s probably the highest it has been.
Dr G 43:44
I think that’s yeah, it’s pretty good for a while. It’s definitely not a pass. Yeah. But you know, it could have been much worse. Definitely.
Dr Rad 43:56
You go to Summit for 43 BC, a fairly mediocre year.
Dr G 44:04
Classic times for Rome. Yeah.
Dr Rad 44:05
Dr G 44:06
been a pleasure to speak with you as always, and to learn all about Livy’s account of what’s happening with our data, and how the Romans are really coping with themselves right now.
Dr Rad 44:17
Absolutely. See you next time.
We hope that you have enjoyed listening to this episode of the partial historians, and we would like to send a special thank you to all of our Patreon ‘s out there. And this month, we would like to say a particular hello to Zera, Tamara and Justine, who joined us all the way back in 2020 2020. If you too, would like to become a patreon then please head on over to our page and pledge your support. It really helps with the costs of running the show. In return, you get early access to special episodes and also some new exclusive Patreon only content. However, if you aren’t able to support the show in that way at the moment that is completely fine. You can also help us out by spreading the word about the passion of historians wherever you go, whether it’s in real life or on social media. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome
Transcribed by https://otter.ai